Some education, please?

[marylahree]

Today I responded to a thread about exchanging excerpts and sharing thoughts or opinions about them - peer critique, I took it. In fact, some of the writers asked others to be brutally honest. And although I am not brutal, I do offer suggestions if I believe it can improve the work, while acknowledging that I'm only an amateur.

I gave feedback to one story in which the writer wrote sentences such as: "She sits at the table and pours herself a drink." My feedback was to suggest something more like: "She sat at the table and poured herself a drink.", which I have always believed would be the correct way to write such a sentence. At least that's what numerous english teachers had drilled into my head throughout my school years.

But the writer, who said he was an accomplished screenplay writer, and had even acted in one of his plays, seemed to take offense. He returned the favor, cutting down every aspect of my excerpt he could - which probably wasn't difficult since I've never professed to be an expert. And he maintained that his sentences were acceptable as they were. Perhaps they were, and that is what I'm trying to find out.

Myself, I can't imagine an editor letting such sentences slide. I looked to my creative writing handbook by way of trying to resolve the matter to my satisfaction. It really wasn't helpful. Because in the author's instructions to the reader, he writes as though he wants the reader to imagine that an event is happening right now, and in describing the event he writes:

"Imagine you are seated in the mathematics classroom. Mr Smythe is lecturing . . .".

In the above example I can appreciate the use of "is". The author is essentially talking to the student, not narrating in the way that novels are usually written, (for lack of knowing how to correctly term what I'm trying to demonstrate). But is it acceptable to narrate a story in this manner. I mean, assuming one hopes to sell their manuscript. As my belief stands currently, it is not. But I'm open to learning otherwise if I am wrong.

Further, regarding my own excerpt, do you see anything wrong with the following:

"A. C. covered his mouth in an exaggerated yawn, then moved his hand to the side of his face, where he knew Trent Hystel would see it. He rested his upright, middle finger against his cheek. Arguably, he could have merely been resting his chin on those fingers that remained fisted, but he felt certain that Hystel got his dismissive meaning. (This may not be exact, but is very close, at least to my memory of what I wrote.)

In specific, the writer replied to the effect that, "only an idiot", would believe that A. C. was not giving the finger, (concerning what my teacher character might or might not believe). That it was not appropriate for me to use the word, "arguably", and that my description was needlessly wordy. Also, that giving the finger is not a "dismissive" gesture.

But I would think, that regardless of what the teacher might suspect, he could not say for certain whether A. C. was giving another student the finger or merely propping his chin. Not unless he asked, or could read A. C.'s thoughts. Further, I believe that giving the finger would be a dismissive reaction to the other student's threat. It wordlessly says A. C. didn't fear the student. However, if I am the one in error please explain. I'm not above learning from mistakes.

[Steven Barnes]

I wouldn't say "only an idiot", but certainly it's likely. Regarding your critique: advanced writers play with all kinds of odd tenses to achieve effects. The screenwriter may have known what he was doing.

[marylahree]

He probably did know what he was doing in terms of writing for screen, but I could not see where his usage would have achieved any special effect if written as a novel. It might have been helpful if he had explained from the beginning that he was writing a screenplay, and not a novel. Too, one has to wonder why a seemingly self assured professional would bother to ask for critique from those he clearly knew were less skilled at the craft - not unless he was amusing himself at their expense, and I don't view that as humorous, but immature.

Okay, perhaps lesson learned concerning my description of my character giving the finger, and the use of the word "arguably", to pull it off. But honestly, I have seen babies bring their middle finger to rest against their face, with the rest of their fingers fisted under their chin - and even elderly people at church, who were seemingly caught up in listening to the minister's sermon - and those were the images that came to mind when I decided to use "arguably" to begin that sentence. It's doubtful that babies or elderly church-goers are intending to flip others off. Also, it was not written that the teacher (character) had taken notice of the gesture. The teacher had taken notice because of a verbal threat by the other student, seconds later.

In any case, thank you for answering.

[Steven Barnes]

I've seen all kinds of odd grammatical usages effectively applied. And I ask people without any writing skill at ALL to critique my stuff. At the least, they're readers, right? Which are your market, correct? Don't need to be Steinbeck to have an opinion.

[marylahree]

I understand Steven, but do you shoot the reader, (so to speak), in the event that you don't happen to agree with or like their feedback?

Oh, well. No matter. I ate my slice of humble pie and have since resolved the issue with that fellow. But again, thank you for explaining.

[temporus]

Mary,

I've had a wide gamut of feedback on stories I've put out for critique. I've had some people tell me it was the most heartful, wonderful thing they've ever read, and hoped that there would be more like it. Others said it was boring, painful, or a waste of time. These were people talking about the same story.

It can be a great challenge to look at your feedback, and get a sense of what are the piece's strengths or weaknesses. It can also be challenging, if you get a lot of people who tell you how they would handle your story instead of trying to talk to you about the words you put on the page. The most important thing to consider, is that any feedback you get, good, bad or indifferent, comes at the expense of the reader's time. Agree or disagree, that's always your perogative. But even when it hurts, because you don't like what the person reading your story has to say, they are choosing to spend their time giving you feedback as opposed to going on and doing other things with their life. You have to appreciate that much at the least. Whether you choose to follow advice, or opinion, etc, try to get multiple sources of feedback, and look for trends. If everyone is saying the same thing, you may well have missed your mark. If the advice is all over the place, you can think about each item as it comes.

One other word of advice. Don't rely only on other writers. Try to get broad opinions. I find that writer advice is very important, but that often I get the same kinds of comments from other writers. I get different opinions from non-writers. That kind of thing can be useful to know.

Good luck with it all,
Ed

[Steven Barnes]

Yeah. Your market isn't writers, its readers. Readers see different things. Writers see the strings, readers see the puppet show.

[marylahree]

Point taken, thank you both. The only problem I see with readers (because they are usually a relative or friend) is that they tend to tell me what they think I want to hear. However, I can get some honesty on one writing site I joined.

[temporus]

Cultivating honest readers takes a little work. I am blessed with a wife who understands that telling me nice things just to make me feel good doesn't actually help, so she will read things with a critical eye. However, as she's rather busy taking care of our son, and most of the household issues, I don't abuse her good will unless I have a specific need. (IE a deadline.)

I find, handing off a story to read, and then asking for feedback is a lot like assigning your friends an essay without even providing a topic. Many people shut down at that, and so will just say things like: it's nice. Or it was good.

Since that's not what you're looking for, you'd be better served by asking for specific feedback. Give them things to talk specific about, and you will find more detailed and interesting responses. The challenge, is to prompt them for more information, without asking leading questions.

Ed